Save the Perishing Blog

Earlier this year I had the interesting experience of witnessing to a satanist named Robert on my youtube channel.  This debate lasted for almost three days.

What I found fascinating about our conversation is he was very polite and straightforward.  He asked a lot of questions and seemed to be interested in the answers.  He didn’t call me names or get angry, although he told me he was tempted to at one point, but he restrained himself.

One would expect a satanist to be outwardly angry and loud, after all satanists are…well…satanists!  I converse with atheists who are more hateful, angry and loud than Robert.  I figured a satanist would be far worse in attitude than an atheist.

It was an interesting comparison.  On the one hand we have a satanist who knows who the true God is but opposes Him, and atheists who have rejected the knowledge God has already given them (Romans 1:19, 28).  It was strange to see the differences between the two.  I suspect the reason atheists are more vocal than others is because they are actively suppressing the knowledge of God causing internal conflicts and stress while satanists fully accept God exists.  But thats another topic for another post.

“I’m more loving than God”

When I asked Robert why he is a satanist he argued he is more loving than God.  When the Alabama tornados ripped through the state in 2011 there were rescue workers and volunteers helping to rebuild.  Robert told me he was one of these people.

“The bible says God causes natural disasters” he said.  “God causes all this suffering and I’m helping these people.  I’m more loving than God.”

“Interesting viewpoint.” I thought.

I asked him, “Why aren’t there MORE weather disasters and MORE people dying?  After all, If God wasn’t very loving why doesn’t God cause disasters every single day, across the entire planet all at once to everyone?”

He didn’t know why.

I told him the reason is because God is loving and not the way he is describing.  While it is true we live in a world with weather disasters we also live in a world with sunshine, laughter, love, gravity, food, clothing, air to breathe, families, friends, jobs, etc. which are all gifts from the Lord (James 1:17).  It seems to me if an all powerful “unloving” God wanted to be less than loving we would ALL know it ALL the time.

There were at least 500 people killed in the US in 2011 from tornados.  But America has 300 million people.  Why such a small amount of casualties if God is evil or unloving?  The answer is God isn’t evil or unloving.

“God predestines people for hell?”

At one point in our conversation he told me God predestined people to hell before they were born.  He showed me a verse which had the word “predestined” in it.  He told me if its true God is not good because He never gave the people predestined for hell a chance, a “loving and just” God wouldn’t do that.  After all, he said, what kind of justice is it where people are never given a chance to obey God?  Its unloving, unjust, and cruel to create people for eternal torment.

Robert must have heard this definition of predestination from Calvinists.

I was tempted to tell Robert everything God does is good, and while that is a true statement, telling him this isn’t answering his question, it will only confuse him further.  After all, when he sees verses that say “predestine” he assumes it must mean God is creating certain people to suffer or not suffer, for heaven or hell.  I thought I would help him understand.

I explained to him God’s predestination refers to what He will do with believers after they are believers.  I am predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son (because I’m a believer already).  I am predestined to be resurrected into a new heavenly body (because I’m a believer already), etc..

God is active in this universe and He does what He pleases, but He would never do anything against His nature.  The bible says God wouldn’t take favoritism on a select few (Luke 20:21, Galatians 2:6).  Choosing some for heaven and most for hell before they are born is taking favoritism on them.  Furthermore if God did gives special favor on some it would be a travesty of justice, because some are offered pardons for their sins while others aren’t.  Its very unloving.  This was actually Robert’s argument.  A God who claims to be “all-loving and just” wouldn’t “unjustly and unlovingly” create people for heaven or hell before they are born.  The concept is contradictory to what God has revealed about Himself in the bible.

No free will if God knows

Robert asked me if God knows the future how can he or anyone have free will?  He was complaining God was a tyrant controlling the outcomes of what we decide since He already knows.  Well, it is true God knows the future perfectly but this knowledge doesn’t affect our free choices.

Lets say I place a hungry mouse in a maze with a piece of cheese on the other side.  I can predict where the mouse will go because I am forcing it to go a certain way from the layout of the maze.  If I change the layout ahead of the mouse I will force it to go that way.  While this example is simplistic the fact is the mouse still has free will and so do I yet I am controlling where the mouse goes.

I asked him what he had for lunch today and he told me.  I replied, “Did God force you to eat that?  Did He hold your mouth open and force it down your throat?”

He agreed that God didn’t but he was still complaining about God knowing means God controls.

I told him, “If God’s foreknowledge means He controls you than you should be thanking Him for the sins you love to do!”

He thought about that for a second and then switched the subject.  I think he was not willing to admit the God he was trying to defame would help him do the sins he loves to do.  IF that were true he should be thanking God!  And we can’t have that as a satanist!

The punishment doesn’t fit the crime

“Hell is too harsh” he said.  “Its unfair for God to send someone to hell for eternity.  Eternity is forever.  The punishment doesn’t fit the crime.”

I said, “Do you have a problem with sentencing a criminal to life in prison?”

“No.” he said.

“That person is going to spend the rest of their lives in prison, they have no chance of getting out.  So why are you bothered by God sending people to hell for the rest of their eternal lives.”

“Thats not the same thing!  Earthly prison will end eventually but eternal hell doesn’t!”

I explained to him that a life sentence in an Earthly prison ends in death, where the criminal can no longer enjoy what this life has to offer, cut off forever.  Its similiar in a way to hell but I understood what he was trying to say.  Basically, he didn’t want to admit his sins deserved an infinite payment because he didn’t think his sins were all that bad.  This is from pride.

So I went down a different road with him.  If you lie to your kids its no big deal.  If you lie to your spouse you could end up sleeping on the couch.  If you lie to your boss you could get fired.  If you lie in a court of law you could be sent to prison.  Whats the key difference between all these?  The difference is who you are lying to.  God is the most powerful being in the universe, He is INFINITE!  This means sins against His laws require an INFINITE penalty, spiritual death in a place where all of God’s goodness has been removed!

My satanist friend didn’t want to admit his sins are infinite penalties.

“God isn’t good”

By this time I realized Robert’s strategy was showing how God isn’t good, to defame God’s character and nature so its easier to reject God. He tried to show me verses where God kills people including babies or God caused a bear to attack some kids, all of which were taken out of biblical context to prove his point.

While his viewpoint was interesting he seemed to use these ideas to elevate himself above God, to make himself “better”, and if he is better than God why worship a being who is inferior to himself?  Which makes sense.  If God isn’t worthy of worship why should he worship God?

Its a typical strategy of war, make your enemy look evil which will then make your cause seem good.  Its really a war based on propaganda, half-truths and lies.  Since satan is the “father of lies” as Jesus said this is very good way of persuading yourself and others into these beliefs.

I asked him, “Do you worship satan?” and he replied he didn’t worship satan but considered him a brother pursuing the same cause of freedom.

“Freedom from what?” I thought.

I want to sin with no consequences

I asked him, “You don’t want to go to hell because its painful, and you don’t want to go to heaven because God is there so are you saying you want a third alternative you can go so you can sin all you want with no consequences?”  He replied, “Yes!  Thats it exactly!”

Wow!

He said “I want to be in a place where I can be as greedy and lustful as I can be.  I’m not hurting anyone by doing this, I just want my freedom to express myself in my sins.”

I said, “You can’t be greedy without taking from someone else.  You can’t be lustful without inevitably hurting someone else. Sins usually affect and involve others, mostly to their detriment!  These actions have consequences with other people, they always do!  You don’t live in a vacuum!  What if someone else, in this third alternate reality, decided to carry out their lusts by raping you?”

He replied, “I would avenge myself by doing something to them!”

I thought he said he wasn’t hurting anyone by doing these things?

I continued, “God didn’t create you to live in sin forever.  He created you to love Him and you are going against God’s design.  Your actions will inevitably affect someone else in an adverse way.  You act as if you are better than God so you think you are good.  But being righteous and good means you do whats best for everyone, not yourself.  If everyone did as you do people would be stepping all over each other to get their way.  So basically you aren’t good.”

At the end of our conversation he said the “army of satan” will overthrow God and toss Him into hell, and satan will reign on earth.

Since Robert believes God knows the future perfectly how can he throw God into hell when God knows they are going to do that?  Furthermore he didn’t like God sending people to be tortured in hell forever because its unjust but he is willing to throw god into hell to be tortured?

Wow!  Contradictions abound in his belief system.

Pride minus reason equals dumb

It was a very interesting witnessing encounter.  Robert spoke with an air of authority, as if he had all the answers when in fact he contradicted himself many times.  He seemed sincere in his questions but perhaps he was merely trying to get me to agree with his side of things.  I say that because every time I got him into a logical corner he wouldn’t admit he was wrong.

I know God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble so normally I don’t give the gospel to a prideful person.  Early on I decided to give him the gospel message anyway since I couldn’t tell if his questions were sincere or not.  I know there are satanists who receive Christ later on.

I was fascinated by the fact that he was being lied to since he thinks he will beat God in the end and reign on Earth.  Even satanists are lied to by satan!  Wow!

Its amazing what pride can do to a person.  Pride is basically an elevated position of yourself that’s not true.  You are, in effect, lying to …yourself!  What a strange thing to see in Robert!  Its as if his reason and logic has been overthrown by his lies about himself!

I hope and pray he will come to his senses and realize the one he is following is a liar and the Father of lies.  Please pray for Robert’s salvation where he can believe in a God that is not contradictory and who loves him eternally.